The Hound of the Baskervilles, part 2...

Tea, Tonic, and Toxin is a book club and podcast for anyone who loves mysteries and detective stories. We’re making our way through the 19th-century stories that helped the genre evolve. Next up: Arthur Conan Doyle’s 1902 novel, The Hound of the Baskervilles.

This turn-of-the-century, Gothic-inspired spine-tingler includes a spectral hound and a decidedly hands-off Sherlock Holmes. The Hound of the Baskervilles is considered by many to be Arthur Conan Doyle’s best — and one of the most gripping and suspenseful murder mysteries ever written.

How to Read It: Buy it on Amazon, find a copy at a used bookstore, or read it for free (courtesy of Project Gutenberg).

Estimated Reading Time: 4 hours. Share your thoughts and check out the questions below!

Brain Attic: Holmes says, “Intense mental concentration has a curious way of blotting out what has passed. The barrister who … is able to argue with an expert upon his own subject finds that a week or two of the courts will drive it all out of his head once more. So each of my cases displaces the last.”

Lies and Deceit: Even though The Hound of the Baskervilles emphasizes the importance of truth and justice, almost everyone lies in the book. The Barrymores lie about Selden, the Stapletons lie about their relationship (and about most everything else), Watson lies to Mr. Frankland, and Holmes lies to Watson. When is deceit justified?

Aiding and Abetting: Barrymore says Watson shouldn’t have hunted the murderer, Selden. Henry says they might have kept quiet if Barrymore had told the secret of his own free will. Barrymore says Selden is heading to South America and turning him in would only get the Barrymores in trouble. Watson says Selden’s departure would “relieve the tax-payer of a burden.” Watson even pities Selden on the rainy moors, noting, “Whatever his crimes, he has suffered something to atone for them.” Keep in mind that Watson remembers Selden’s case well “on account of the peculiar ferocity of the crime and the wanton brutality.” So many sketchy rationalizations …

The Ties That Bind: Mrs. Barrymore’s brother was a violent murderer, but she grieves his death, for to her “he always remained the little wilful boy of her own girlhood, the child who had clung to her hand.” Watson writes, “Evil indeed is the man who has not one woman to mourn him.” Selden has Mrs. Barrymore to mourn him. Stapleton has no one. Did you see Stapleton as more evil than Selden? How far would you go to protect one you love?

Hell Hath No Fury Like a Woman Scorned: Does Stapleton’s poor treatment of Beryl and Laura Lyons relieve either woman of responsibility in helping him? Are they accessories to murder?

Supernatural Horror: In the intro to The Big Bow Mystery, Israel Zangwill said mysteries should have a “pervasive atmosphere of horror and awe such as Poe manages to create.” How would you describe the atmosphere in Baskervilles? At one point, Mortimer says, “There is a realm in which the most acute and most experienced of detectives is helpless.” What if Holmes had found no rational explanation for the events on the moor? How shocked would you have been if the story included an actual supernatur

Transcript

Sarah Harrison: 0:24

Welcome to Tea, Tonic, and Toxin, a book club and podcast for anyone who wants to explore the best mysteries and thrillers ever written. I'm your host, Sarah Harrison,

Carolyn Daughters: 0:36

and I'm your host Carolyn Daughters. Pour yourself a tea, or a gin and tonic,

Sarah Harrison: 0:42

but not a toxin

Carolyn Daughters: 0:44

and join us on the journey through 19th and 20th century mysteries and thrillers, every one of them a game changer.

Sarah Harrison: 0:57

Carolyn, I'm really liking our book this month. So good.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:00

It is the Hound of the Baskervilles. I love it.

Sarah Harrison: 1:02

I think it's my favorite one so far, actually. Really? Yeah. Yeah, so our second Sherlock Holmes book,

Carolyn Daughters: 1:12

second book, second episode on The Hound of the Baskervilles. Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 1:16

Oh, yeah. So if you haven't listened to the first one. I mean, you don't have to go in order. Not chronological. No, they're topical, topical. But in this one, we'll talk about a hound.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:28

We're gonna actually talk about the hound. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 1:32

So the first the first Sherlock Holmes read was A Study in Scarlet, which I believe was the first Sherlock Holmes. Is that correct? Yes, yeah. And then this Gothic inspired spine tingler. The Hound of the Baskervilles includes a spectral hound, and a hands off Sherlock Holmes, published in 1902. It's generally considered Arthur Conan Doyle's best book, best book period, or just best Sherlock Holmes.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:03

This book period.

Sarah Harrison: 2:06

takes about four hours to read a book. So if you go get it, it's well worth the time.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:12

Yeah, short read. Yeah, I can't remember I told you this. Sir. When I was about halfway through the story, I'd read it years and years and years ago. Because I am secretly 102. And like, halfway through the book, I started to feel the sadness that the book was going to end. Oh, really? Do you ever

Sarah Harrison: 2:34

a book? Oh, yeah. Especially after books if feel that way with I'm reading a really long book, and they sort of become like your friend and companion. Yeah. And then the book ends. Lots of times I just can't read another book for a while. Like I have to go through a period of mourning and distance.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:53

Yeah, I was I was feeling sad. And so I think that's a testament to the book. I felt that way. Thought halfway through the first part of The Moonstone there's two parts and The Moonstone halfway through the they're very different parts. It's we also have podcast episodes on the moonstone. So please, listen up and read, read The Moonstone Wilkie Collins. But I felt the same way that oh, this is a really fun, interesting mystery. And I in advance was sort of sad it was going to end. Well, Sarah, before we get too deep into the book, I think we have a sponsor.

Sarah Harrison: 3:35

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Carolyn Daughters: 4:12

Yeah, and they have a bunch of products that would be kind of nice for gifts for the holidays.

Sarah Harrison: 4:18

They kind of started this nice little gift line and it's very cute.

Carolyn Daughters: 4:22

Nice boxes, healthy extracts in beautiful, colorful boxes. All eco friendly.

Sarah Harrison: 4:29

Yeah, I think they probably fit in stockings and stuff. You know,

Carolyn Daughters: 4:32

I think they could

Sarah Harrison: 4:34

get some. Let's find out.

Carolyn Daughters: 4:37

We also have a listener award for this episode. And that's gonna go to Chris Zell. Thanks, Chris. Thank you Chris. Thanks for being a fan of Tea Tonic and Toxin, our book club and podcast. We appreciate you and to show our appreciation. We're going to be sending you a very awesome Tea Tonic and Toxin sticker. We're gonna do it. Beautiful there. are like this dark purple with white and red we've got the tea cup we have the gin and tonic we have the toxin which you should not be drinking. We have the website and the website. Teatonicandtoxin.com. And on Facebook and Instagram you can find us at @teatonicandtoxin. All you have to do to get one of these amazing stickers. Tell us sir What do they have to do?

Sarah Harrison: 5:27

Let us know you're out there. No. So you can even like disagree with stuff. That's fine. What? Yeah, it'd be like, your list is bogus.

Carolyn Daughters: 5:36

You guys don't know anything about Sherlock Holmes got it all wrong.

Sarah Harrison: 5:41

Super sweet sticker. Stick it anywhere you like to stick your stickers. Yeah, I like mine on coolers. Yeah, and water water bottles to like journals. I like to stick them on books and then find the book years later. My sticker.

Carolyn Daughters: 5:54

Yeah it's a memory.

Sarah Harrison: 5:56

A filing cabinet covered in stickers that Nate hates. Why does he hate it says it's ugly. I could have a sticker problem. But I don't.

Carolyn Daughters: 6:09

No, I would say definitely not a sticker problem. So anyhow, let's go out of The Hound of the Baskervilles. We like to just you know make sure everybody knows what we're about to be talking about. Some of you read the book and that is awesome. And if you haven't, you should, but that shouldn't stop you from listening to the podcast.

Sarah Harrison: 6:31

No, you here's a summary written by brilliant Carolyn Daughters.

Carolyn Daughters: 6:37

There's apparently like 15 spoilers in here. Just spoilers. Spoiler alert, not in this book. The Hound of the Baskervilles was serialized in the strand magazine and published in book form in 1902. It's set prior to Sherlock Holmes - spoiler alert- shocking death in 1893 story, The Final Problem so this is written nine years later. Sherlock Holmes is going to set Sherlock Holmes I'm sorry, Conan Doyle is going to set Sherlock Holmes before the death he didn't bring him back to life. Holmes and Watson hear the story of Hugo Baskerville who imprisoned a young woman at his Dartmoor estate in Devon Sure, England in the 18th century. Now she gets away and Hugo ultimately fell victim to a supernatural hound as he's pursuing her across the moors one night. Now present day which is going to be late 19th century, the recent death of Sir Charles Baskerville on the moors has rekindled local suspicions and fears. Holmes is called upon to protect Charles's heir. Sir Henry Baskerville, who has received an anonymous warning and is being trailed by a bearded man in London. Home says he's too busy with work and he sent Dr. Watson to accompany Sir Henry to start more to be his eyes and ears. Once in Dartmoor, Watson meet siblings Jack and Beryl Stapleton barrel mistakes Watson for Sir Henry and warns him to leave. A bunch of unsettling events occur, Watson learns an escaped convict is on the loose, he hears a hound a hound howling, it's very hard to say, and sees a mysterious figure wandering the Moors at night. Watson soon discovers a Barrymore is aiding, I'm sorry that the manservant is aiding the escaped convict who turns out to be his brother in law. Watson also discovers that the mysterious figure is none other than Sherlock Holmes, who has been conducting his own secret investigation on the Moore's Holmes has learned that Stapleton is next in line to inherit the Baskerville fortune. Stapleton is plotted to kill his relatives using a vicious hound that he has painted with phosphorus to appear sinister. That was spoiler number 15 Holmes uses Henry Baskerville as bait to catch Stapleton as Henry crosses the Moors on a foggy night the hound comes for him. Holmes and Watson kill the beast just in the nick of time. Stapleton flees the scene and is swallowed up by the Grimpen Mire, the boggy moors. We assume it's implied it's implied we'll never find the body this is probably a sequel that I don't know about where we keep comes back and I wasn't taken by the Grimpen Mire I got away.

Sarah Harrison: 9:29

That reminded me I wanted to ask you, Sherlock expert. Does Sherlock Holmes have a nemesis named like Moriarty Moriarty and he hasn't come up in either of our books, so maybe I should just read more books. Is that real? So he's in a lot of other books just not the two we chose.

Carolyn Daughters: 9:47

Oh, my goodness. He must be in something. I don't know. I don't know. I'm I was gonna say self proclaimed I'm the proclaim Sherlock Holmes expert. I've proclaimed you proclaimed to me. I am not a Sherlock Holmes expert. But yes, I'm going to say other stories.

Sarah Harrison: 10:08

I was just wondering you know if that's like the rise of the super villain or the nemesis. You haven't really had one or Marvel?

Carolyn Daughters: 10:20

Yes.

Sarah Harrison: 10:21

Oh, Marvel movies?

Carolyn Daughters: 10:24

Yeah, that super villain. So what Sherlock Holmes has that not all of the books that we've read have is it's a series not a series that has to be read in order but a series meaning that the same core characters are in the stories. And so, yeah, they have like a, you know, sort of overarching, you know, arch villain sort of, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 10:50

So that's interesting, because they don't all these detectives, and they're always complaining. But like the villains aren't villainy enough.

Carolyn Daughters: 10:57

Yeah. There's no good crime to solve. Yeah,

Sarah Harrison: 11:00

there's all this too easy crime and stupid crime. We want a good villain. And then like what? Moriarty? Isn't he something?

Carolyn Daughters: 11:09

He must be something. I had listeners, please help us out here because you could see we have no idea what we're talking

Sarah Harrison: 11:23

Do you know who this person is? Have you read more Sherlock Holmes? It's kind of cool to me, from my perspective of always coming into this like a total blank. You know, my background? Well, I'm a super fan of literature and reading. My actual professional background is more science. So yeah, always kind of reading these books as a blank. It's just like, oh, what's gonna happen? I don't know.

Carolyn Daughters: 11:50

No, it's fun. I think that that's, that's part of the enjoyment here. You know, when when we read A Study in Scarlet, and then it shifts to Mormon country. In the United States. It's, it's, I don't know. I mean, it's a little shocking, right? Like it's unexpected,

Sarah Harrison: 12:11

like I see pulled in the United States in here to this for Sir Henry was living over in America, but Canada was a Canada. Okay. Yeah, we called them back to inherit the state.

Carolyn Daughters: 12:24

It's, yeah, it's interesting. You know, there's that it's sort of a spooky book in many ways. There's this spectral hound, you know, supernatural hound, and it's on the, you know, dark moors. It's often foggy, and there's this baggy mire that you know, people can get lost in essentially very dangerous ground and everyone's spying on everyone else. Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 12:53

Yeah, you made a comment here. All the spies. Tell me what you're thinking there.

Carolyn Daughters: 12:58

I just I think it's interesting. So, sir, Henry's in London with Holmes and some guy with a beard. Maybe a fake beard we don't know is spying on him. And the man servant Barrymores watching out the window spying on someone. We don't know who it is at first, but we learn it's that criminal. Holmes is spying on Stapleton because Holmes is living out on the mortgage

Sarah Harrison: 13:24

pretending to be in London. He comes in sneaky lives on the Moors and has his mail forwarded to a primitive hut.

Carolyn Daughters: 13:34

There's another characters like from what I can tell like eight people who live out in this area total, you know, and their houses are spaced out and one very cranky man. Franklin has his telescope and he's always peering out and he's the one who sees Sherlock Holmes though he doesn't know what Sherlock Holmes Watson and Sir Henry spy on the man servant as the man servant is spying on the criminal out on the Moors. Yeah, it's just it's everybody's got their eye on somebody else in this story. It's I think it's interesting.

Sarah Harrison: 14:08

It is interesting. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Like, I hadn't thought actually until this. This topic like these are all people with intense hobbies too. Yes, you got Franklin in his telescope when he's not using it for the sky so much. It's just like buying out on what's going on in the more

Carolyn Daughters: 14:30

Yeah, cuz he's like the nuisance lawsuit guy. Yeah, he's got lawsuits against hobby everybody. Just for the the like fun in the sort of vitriol of it. He's just, you know, we all know a guy like this right? Who's just, I don't know, just angry and sort of like, a little cantankerous Yeah. And he gets pleasure from like, poking people, you know, you know, I'm gonna poke you with a stick. I'm gonna, you know, start a lawsuit against you just for the heck of it. Starting last year

Sarah Harrison: 15:00

yeah he would get like right of ways close down and then open up other right away so pretty Yeah, he was a character and then you got the Dr. Mortimer was something about studying skulls. I don't know if it was phonology or something else and also insects. I think that was Selden. Selden was the insect guard. No, no not Selden. Stapleton Stapleton. Stapleton was going around with this butterfly, so it

Carolyn Daughters: 15:29

was different. Oh, that's Mortimers chronologist. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Always

Sarah Harrison: 15:34

being distracted talking about schools. Celtic's go.

Carolyn Daughters: 15:39

Yeah, I remember when I was reading, I was looking up. You know, I tried to look up all the words that I don't know. So basically, that's all I do is I

Sarah Harrison: 15:48

just, I circled quite a few, but I didn't get to look them all up.

Carolyn Daughters: 15:52

Yeah, like an hour later on. Still on the same page, essentially, in case you're wondering how reading goes in my house. And I'm there all these different butterflies and moths.

Sarah Harrison: 16:02

Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of his backstory and how he got caught. Yeah, is Stapleton used to run a school. And he was kind of an expert in butterflies and moths, and yeah. So all these people are just out on the more. You got Mortimer digging up, skulls, and then Franklin's gonna bring a lawsuit against him for like opening graves without permission. You know, Stapleton gets out there running around catching bugs. And he's got all these rare ones because we're such a weird place.

Carolyn Daughters: 16:36

What is Henry Baskerville gonna do in Baskerville Hall with all these? Like,

Sarah Harrison: 16:42

I don't know is weird. Oh, neighbor, weird Oh,

Carolyn Daughters: 16:44

loner neighbors who don't even live that near to him like to walk from one property to the next. It's miles. That miles, it seemed like it was not that far. I don't know. It seemed like miles.

Sarah Harrison: 16:57

Yeah, apparently, he's supposed to be the philanthropist. Everyone is just like, aren't you gonna come continue sir Charles's work,

Carolyn Daughters: 17:03

right, because they're Charles, who died on the Moors, was a philanthropist

Sarah Harrison: 17:09

and left a lot of money. And they were saying, well, they want someone in the hall because it would be good for the country side. And I'm assuming that's your philanthropy side. Yeah. But

Carolyn Daughters: 17:19

you get the sense that Watson's pretty bored and more of them are Eve and you know, what am I going to be doing out here? So nice. Well, I'm going to put up lights on the path and I'm going to, like, okay, cool. You're going to invite any people or like,

Sarah Harrison: 17:33

or like, it's the I think you have to develop a pretty intense hobby, the country to

Carolyn Daughters: 17:38

and really, I think, be comfortable just sort of being out there on your own. Isolated in this sort of wild space. Watson is not derogatory necessarily towards space, but he's not positive about it, either. I don't think you could not just drop Watson off there for a year and just say, like, Hey, hang out here.

Sarah Harrison: 17:57

He does not enjoy

Carolyn Daughters: 17:58

it doesn't.

Sarah Harrison: 17:59

He's there with a purpose and he's writing his report. That's not where he wants to live his life.

Carolyn Daughters: 18:05

Yeah. You know, we find out Sherlock Holmes is on the Moors. And, you know, we don't know it's him at first, but we know that there's a criminal out there and then we know there's some other guy. And when Watson finds out it's Sherlock Holmes, Watson realizes he is he Watson is not in on the secret. Like there's a lot going on. Watson doesn't know about it. Like how did you feel about Sherlock Holmes sort of secret agenda? Well, I

Sarah Harrison: 18:40

mean, I didn't I wasn't as hurt by it. It's Watson was really he was like, pretty hurt.

Carolyn Daughters: 18:45

Yeah, to be fair. It happened. What

Sarah Harrison: 18:49

Yeah, exactly. Was Was it as I know, yeah. Well, that makes sense. But Watson was like You don't trust me? I've been wasting my time you. And I think it goes back to the relationship like Watson loves being helpful. Yeah. He loves being the helper and he thought he was being the helper and then he felt like oh, I was just being a dupe and a decoy. Yes. Which Holmes goes to a little bit of trouble to reassure him on that which I thought was kind of sweet.

Carolyn Daughters: 19:20

Yeah, that was the sort of friendship element that I thought is really interesting about this book that Sherlock Holmes is actively not only considering Watson a friend but really like looking out for him and concerned about his well

Sarah Harrison: 19:35

being Yeah, he was like, oh, no, no, what's the new reports are actually really good. They were really helpful. Reports are very nice. I had them forwarded to me Cartwright brought them is really fast is great. Still don't feel bad.

Carolyn Daughters: 19:47

Yeah, I am. I don't know I was sort of affected by the communication style here that you know, keeping everything close to the vest and you only share things knows if it's absolutely essential that the person know it. And so, like Watson, at one point says his great deal was in front of us. And yet Holmes had said nothing, and I can only surmise what his course of action would be. That is a pet peeve of mine with

Sarah Harrison: 20:14

Oh, really? Yeah. Tell me about that.

Carolyn Daughters: 20:18

I am. If something has to do with me, I don't like when I'm treated like a child that where I don't know what the key information is that that communication style doesn't work for me. I probably do. But I don't know that I

Sarah Harrison: 20:42

know, I just

Carolyn Daughters: 20:44

don't know. It's it's, I'm not, I wouldn't say it happens frequently, per se, but I do know, it hits a nerve with me, because I have a tendency to do the opposite and to over communicate. And over communication is not necessarily the best thing either. But

Sarah Harrison: 21:04

no, I would rather I believe is the best thing.

Carolyn Daughters: 21:08

I can be sort of repetitive and in my over communicating, like, Hey, did you hear what I just said? Let me tell you again, I'm going to tell you that thing again. And by the way on in parting, here's this thing again.

Sarah Harrison: 21:21

It's certainly not the norm in all of my projects. You know, I always kind of preface with my clients and I'm just like, hey, communications, the hardest thing you're not gonna get a lot of complaints that you're communicating too much. Just the opposite, right. So do your best to get someone to complain to communicate. Well, we'll consider it a victory. Yes. Gonna

Carolyn Daughters: 21:48

be a win. Yeah, yeah. Chuck Holmes does this thing that we talked about in A Study in Scarlet where he has his brain attic. And he says that in the brain attic, there's only so much room but we know

Sarah Harrison: 22:02

like his use of his brain attic is a pet peeve of mine. I just, I'm not by I mean, I get the brain at it concept. But just how dismissive he was of the solar system. And then he's like, always going to the opera and always going to the theater. And I'm like, what, isn't that getting in your brain attics? Or isn't that taking up some space solar system is too much, you're going to try and forget it. But you're going to like go to all these theaters and galleries so

Carolyn Daughters: 22:31

clarify what this brain attic is, for for the three or four people of our many listeners who have not yet read or heard read. What do you mean studying the podcast? Yeah, what is the brain? Well, it

Sarah Harrison: 22:46

seems to just be the the limited capacity, how Sherlock Holmes is thinking of his brain. You can only hold so much. And you want to stick stuff up there. If you want something to you have to take something out,

Carolyn Daughters: 22:58

or Yeah, or you stick something into inconsequential up there. And it ends up bumping out something more consequential. Yes, because of the limited space in your brain. He calls it his brain attic.

Sarah Harrison: 23:11

I like that. I like I like the idea of it.

Carolyn Daughters: 23:16

So this, I'm a you know, I do marketing and writing. And you know all of that. And years ago, I had written this article about creative co ops groups or organizations formed around creatives. It was before the time when everybody had their shared workspaces and all of that, but it was it was that general concept without the shared workspace, it was a group of creatives who all had that in common and could share ideas and what was working and what was not. And I wrote this article for the paper. And then maybe a year later, a friend of mine asked me to write something for her about a co op, a creative Co Op. And so I wrote it for her. And she did some research after I sent her the draft. And she said, you wrote about this topic a year ago. And she said, but when I brought it up to you, you seemed to not know very much about it. And I said, I Where did I Where did I so she's showing me what I wrote. And I believe it's because I I have a brain attic. Oh, yeah, I don't. I am learning about and writing about so many different things. I often forget what I'm writing about after I finished writing it. It's

Sarah Harrison: 24:45

totally true. And in fact, I remember distinctly when I was in undergrad, as in quantum mechanics. I was writing these ridiculous math problems that would just take pages. And as I was writing them i would just have this thought, like, gonna look back on this one day and have no idea what I was doing. So I kept that binder and I'm gonna find it and pretty soon just so I can look back at it and be like, What on earth is this? You know, but at one point you knew it. I kind of knew what I was doing.

Carolyn Daughters: 25:19

Yeah. Yeah, I, once I'm done with the project, that information is gone. It's not a badge of honor. I'm certainly not bragging about this. I wish I've retained information better than I do.

Sarah Harrison: 25:34

Yeah, you know, that's what you're using. It's it's I mean, the brain attic concept is somewhat real.

Carolyn Daughters: 25:44

But, you know, it's like, sort of is salvation in a way I'm like, Well, maybe it's not completely terrible. Even Sherlock Holmes had a brain.

Sarah Harrison: 25:54

Yeah, he was super intentional about it is like, Oh, this box goes here. Not one that's out. Yeah, like purge that.

Carolyn Daughters: 26:03

Yeah. So something that really bothered me in the story, is this idea that there's this criminal this violent murder on the Moors, right? His name is Selden and Selden, sister, Mrs. Barrymore and her husband, Mr. Barrymore are protecting him. And they're really like, looking out for him in there, making sure he's okay. And. And then, Watson actually approaches the guy. I'm sorry, Watson decides he's gonna go after the guy. And the Barrymore's are upset with him. Yeah. And I was sort of shocked. You were okay. Interesting. Yeah. I was bothered by it and shocked. And so their idea is, well, I told you, in private, I told you, secretly, and it's that whole, like,

Sarah Harrison: 27:07

um, was the whole code of honor involved that I wasn't, I don't

Carolyn Daughters: 27:12

get the code of honor. I was kind of like, oh, well, I

Sarah Harrison: 27:15

don't think this is a current code of honor. But that's interesting. Yeah. Because they were like, I told you of my own freewill. And they're like, therefore you have to keep my secret. Like, no, we forced it out of you there for we don't have

Carolyn Daughters: 27:28

to either be violent murder on the Moors who escaped prison. But hey, you told me in secret, he's out there. So hush hush like that. To me. That was crazy.

Sarah Harrison: 27:39

Yeah, that was so that was very interesting. Well, they didn't, you know, initially, they went after him. They're like, we're gonna bring this guy down. But then, you know, Barrymore kind of made the point that you bring this guy down, you're bringing me and my wife down. Right? So they kind of they agreed to keep their secret. And, and this was interesting to me. I wouldn't say bother Nemo is interesting. Like, look, he's not going to kill anybody. He's trying to flee the country. Yeah, he's going to America.

Carolyn Daughters: 28:07

We're moving the problem from the Moors to South America.

Sarah Harrison: 28:13

We were like, We don't care if he kills them over there. Right.

Carolyn Daughters: 28:16

I mean, let him kill away South America worth I

Sarah Harrison: 28:19

mean, I guess England has a history of shipping the criminal stuff. Oh, maybe that did feel like a suitable alternative. Let's

Carolyn Daughters: 28:28

Watson says he remembered sellings case well, on account of the peculiar ferocity of the crime and the Watson brutality, but then he says, well, it will relieve the taxpayer of a burden. Yeah. So is this was it about taxpayers the whole time? Like why?

Sarah Harrison: 28:47

No, they just seem to get on board with that solution of getting him out of the country getting him to another country so he's not England problem. Yeah.

Carolyn Daughters: 28:56

And then like on one really rainy night Watson says whatever his crimes, he has suffered something to atone for them. And I thought Watson is losing it out there on the more I don't I really started like, not identifying with Watson through through all of this where he started losing me and I thought, I'm not liking this, Watson.

Sarah Harrison: 29:27

I guess that's interesting. I didn't have a feeling about that. I think he was trying to kind of make a point. It's like the terrifying ness of the mores and yeah, like the mores are a punitive place to have to live and it's almost like he was in prison. Like, a scary place.

Carolyn Daughters: 29:49

But But what if he had decided Wow, it is really rainy and cold. Maybe I will break into Franklin or Mortimers home and hide out like I

Sarah Harrison: 30:01

don't know. Yeah, he's really taking the Barrymores at face value and saying like, no, he definitely won't.

Carolyn Daughters: 30:07

Right? We can we can vouch for this wanton murder. He's going to stay on the Moors until he aboard the ship to South America where? Who knows what will happen?

Sarah Harrison: 30:18

Oh, it is interesting too. I was kind of thinking about a similar topic recently. And this, this won't be very spoilery but there's this Amazon series that I watched the first episode of Just The first episode. What is I think the expanse Oh, it's like a Montana ranch sci fi show. But anyway, I thought it would be like up my alley, but I'm not sure that it is. But anyway, the first episode this guy that owns the ranch, his his son accidentally kills another guy. There just happens to be a giant void into nothingness on the ranch. So they throw the body in there so that his like, son doesn't go to jail because his wife already disappeared and like it's like semi kind of suicidal and I was just I was just thinking about it like oh, what if that was my kid? That was my kid that got into this terrible trouble and their sad life and I have so much empathy and understanding for them and it was kind of a dick that he killed anyway and yeah and and and rationalization. Would I hide that because I turned my kid in, you know, like, Yeah, this is Barry more. Could I turn my little baby brother N? Yeah. I hope I never have to find out.

Carolyn Daughters: 31:42

I know. I mean, you know. Hopefully we none of us ever do. I mean, it's, it's an incredible decision to have to make. It's one thing for Mrs. Barrymore to make this decision about her brother, then by extension, one, a decision her husband makes to support her. And that was interesting to me that he was so on board with. And then he is confronted by Watson and Sir Henry admits the truth. And then by extension, it's like the circle widens, and we're all supposed to be protecting, but the levels of interest in protecting this guy are very different for Mrs. Barrymore versus Sir Henry and Watson you know, but until the tax payers brought into the equation which point Watson's All

Sarah Harrison: 32:35

right once it seems more motivated by this code of honor aspect, or this like acceptable outcome is like punishment. What's an acceptable punishment for this person? Yes, yeah. Of more living and his

Carolyn Daughters: 32:51

own personal code, it has less to do with was this guy convicted? Should he be in prison? It was more Am I you know, responding to this crime and this criminal in a way that that meets my own code? Yeah. And every everybody in this story has it I think it's so interesting, their own code. Like there's two women in this story who are each in their way. super problematic characters for me. Yeah, Beryl and Laura Lyons. Yeah, Laura Lyon. Sounds like a Vegas stripper.

Sarah Harrison: 33:32

She's just a typist folks.

Carolyn Daughters: 33:34

She's just a typist. barrels. Married Stapleton, but she's pretending to be a sister.

Sarah Harrison: 33:43

Yeah, you know, I was okay with barrel until the very end. After she's like, all tied up, I think I underlined it. And she's like, tied up and beat up. Yeah. And this whole time they've been like Watson was like, clearly barrel really like Sir Henry to Yeah. Did she? I can't tell.

Carolyn Daughters: 34:06

Did she though? I don't know. He'd seem to think so. But I never got any sign other than his saying so.

Sarah Harrison: 34:15

Where is that?

Carolyn Daughters: 34:18

It's these two women are basically in their own ways protecting this guy Stapleton until the moment that they find out that he has either betrayed them or doesn't really love them or he's using them. And then you know, it's it's like the dam bursts and both women are ready to just you know, throw him throw him to the hound.

Sarah Harrison: 34:50

Yeah, she was just like, I could have stood the isolations in the beatings and this if only he still loved me and I

Carolyn Daughters: 34:59

could have been the latest later forever if only Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 35:03

If only does Does he love you? Right? Would he have loved you at all?

Carolyn Daughters: 35:09

But but then by extension does, let's say he did love one or both of these women. Does that justify the role each of these two women play and the crimes he's committing? No, of

Sarah Harrison: 35:25

course not.

Carolyn Daughters: 35:26

I don't know. I think according to the moral code of this book, neither woman is going to be held accountable in any way for the crime.

Sarah Harrison: 35:34

No, in fact, they kind of like, I don't know, I'd say lotting barrel a little bit for refusing to like downright aid, Stapleton and murdering Sir Charles. Like, I guess Stapleton was trying to get her to form some kind of sentimental attachment and load him out on the more learner Sir Henry. Oh, yeah, no, not Certainly, sir. Charles free got kill. Yes. And she wouldn't, which is why he had to go the Laura Lyons route, but then,

Carolyn Daughters: 36:06

yeah, so Laura Lyons ended up doing that dirty work, even though she doesn't really know what happened. She admits that she suspected something was going on. She wrote him this letter saying meet me at your gate. And he goes to the gate. And of course, the Hound is really a stone to the Moors, and Sir Charles runs to escape the dog and he had heart trouble and ends up dying. Laura Lyons knows something happened. And she knows that her letter contributed to that thing. And she seems okay with it until such time that it's exposed to her that he's already married because barrel is playing his sister. But Sherlock Holmes tells her no, they're married. Yeah. And then suddenly, Laura Lyons. You know, what do you need to know for me? I can tell you anything. And you know, she's it changes and oh, yeah, I found these two women infuriating.

Sarah Harrison: 37:05

Yeah. They both were kind of positioned as victims. You know, and Laura Lyons. I didn't feel bad for her. Her father was like this horrible crank. So she made a bad marriage. Okay, she got married without permission. Oh, dear. And now her father's like, basically disowned her. No way to support herself. Yeah, apparently she can't get a divorce without a bunch of money. And yeah, it's just at the mercy of our heads, which just that in itself is an interesting aspect where it's like, everybody realizes this is a bad situation. Yeah. We'll just leave the laws like that though. Yeah, that's, that's okay. Well, too bad for her. Yeah, you know, so she's in this position from she made a bad decision. And she gets this own. And so she's just trying to like, scrape by and live her life. And then then you kind of lose that victim feeling when she kind of throws her throws her lot and what Stapleton and she's like, well, if you didn't married me, though,

Carolyn Daughters: 38:14

right, she knows he's shady. And she's as long as he loves her. She's

Sarah Harrison: 38:20

on board. Yeah, that's what I found the passage here that just just like what was what I even wrote what I couldn't do it all l usage, solitude of life of deception, everything, as long as I could still cling to the hope that I had his love. Oh,

Carolyn Daughters: 38:41

I can attest to the fact that she has the word what.

Sarah Harrison: 38:45

Now I know that in this also, I've been his dupe and his tool.

Carolyn Daughters: 38:54

As long as I'm not as stupid, his tool, put up with whatever, it's all good. Is that

Sarah Harrison: 38:58

forgivable? I just feel like it's not like both of these women are just kind of crappy characters that are just like, well, as long as you love me. Yeah, that's all I really need from you. Characters not an issue. Right? Right. It's not who I love and why I love them. It's that you love me.

Carolyn Daughters: 39:22

I'll go one step further and say the women characters are not fully developed. But they're both troubling in their own way. I felt Yeah, I don't know what to do with them. You had also Sarah asked the question offline, you know, is that is this just the female character in a Victorian novel?

Sarah Harrison: 39:51

Is this just even be a Victorian novel if we didn't hate on women a

Carolyn Daughters: 39:55

little bit. It's the author. It feels like an every single author There's like, there's not even a woman character in this book and I'm still going to disparage women like they find a way to like, throw something in, you know, because it's kind of like

Sarah Harrison: 40:08

even if they're complimenting the women, it's a backhanded insult.

Carolyn Daughters: 40:12

Yes. Even though she's the one who can solve crimes and figure things out, like in the woman in white, for example,

Sarah Harrison: 40:21

or the one in Australia,

Carolyn Daughters: 40:23

mystery of a handsome cab in Melbourne. Yeah, the female characters are, you know, actually the ones doing a lot of the deductive work. And yet, it's, you know, you almost see you can almost feel like the character male characters are patting them on the head for it like, oh, very, very nice, intuitive job, you

Sarah Harrison: 40:43

really wait and use a woman's intuition and be completely illogical.

Carolyn Daughters: 40:48

Yeah. And meanwhile, in both instances, in the mystery of a handsome cab, and then the woman and white, the female characters are actually using logic. They're using their brains, and in many cases, being very courageous in their actions to figure out the truth.

Sarah Harrison: 41:08

Yeah. Well, an even barrel here at the very beginning, she tries to warn Sir Henry and goes to all this trouble to send him the disguised warning. Yeah. But then she's like at the end. I was hoping for this end, I guess where she was free of her imprisonment. And she did love Sir Henry and could finally get a chance to be with him. But then when she said that, I was like, wow, that's stupid.

Carolyn Daughters: 41:34

Yeah, I was at end of that whole fairy tale ending for her because I felt like she aided and abetted a little

Sarah Harrison: 41:43

too. She was like, it's not clear that she loved him. Yeah, but she required that he loves her. Yeah, she'd do anything so and then it felt that she was probably being quite false was certainly

Carolyn Daughters: 41:57

for example, she knows and Okay, so this is the biggest spoiler of all there is a hound.

Sarah Harrison: 42:03

To mention the house. The Hound

Carolyn Daughters: 42:05

of the Baskervilles is the book. She knows about the hound? Yeah, she knows where the hound lives. She knows she knows all of it. She doesn't tell anybody about it. Nope. No, I found this super shady.

Sarah Harrison: 42:18

Yeah, she warns them not to come but once you're here, I guess I'll play along. Yeah, it's kind of disheartening dosage, crappy women characters, I've got to say, but

Carolyn Daughters: 42:31

you know, we're gonna get in to this in our next podcast. Our next episode, Lady Molly of Scotland Yard where we're going to see a an actual female detective. That's cool. Yeah. But I mean, it up till now. I would say the what for me, the woman in white was by Wilkie Collins was like the really? This the really startling book for me where I just, I just loved it. And I really felt. I don't know, I felt like sort of it was redeeming with regard to female characters. Whereas in most of the books we've read, they're just written two dimensionally. They like to shop and they don't, you know, they don't really know very much or understand very much or if they do a male character who is important in the book, basically, Pat's, him on the head. Let's, I mean, let's talk about this supernatural hound. Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 43:35

So I've never met a dog that just wanted to rip your throat out like that.

Carolyn Daughters: 43:41

Yeah. I mean, you hear stories or read stories every once in a while as you can train them to do that. Or yeah, or some of them maybe have it in their DNA or something like that. Like, you hear these stories like, oh, the dog is never you know, so much as growled once and then it went crazy one day or something. Yeah. But this is a dog that seems born and bred did to be pretty vicious,

Sarah Harrison: 44:09

and then gave him a glowing eyes and glowing mouth. It's really through Holmes off at the end he like comes out of a fog and they're like, whoa. Like they almost let me get killed.

Carolyn Daughters: 44:21

Yeah, yeah, that's pretty. Okay. So they they say, home says, Sir Henry, you go to this dinner party by yourself. And after the dinner party, you walk home across the moor by yourself. That was pretty bold,

Sarah Harrison: 44:37

especially after he already thought he killed Sir Henry five minutes ago. You know, and so we haven't really talked about this but they kind of sick the Hound and yeah, Selden is wearing sir Henry's old clothes which chases Selden who terrified falls off a cliff and dies. Yeah. And

Carolyn Daughters: 44:58

so that resolves the whole criminal on the loose.

Sarah Harrison: 45:02

Right? All of our moral qualms are moot.

Carolyn Daughters: 45:05

Yeah. The moors took care of it. What Watson and everybody else could not do. The moors took care of. Yeah. The Hound

Sarah Harrison: 45:12

Holmes was like, oh, no, I've killed my client. I should not have held everything so close. And then he's like, Oh, he's alive back to my plan.

Carolyn Daughters: 45:22

What you're going to do is walk home by yourself.

Sarah Harrison: 45:27

Okay, weird. Yeah.

Carolyn Daughters: 45:31

So I'm just going to put you at risk one more time. And he seems to home seems really confident. Oh, it's gonna work out fine. Because what's going to happen is we will be three steps behind him and we have is it a Strat is with him Inspector? Yes. Who plays almost no, I mean, does he have any dialogue?

Sarah Harrison: 45:53

So his character has also changed from being competitive to adoring?

Carolyn Daughters: 45:57

Yes, he's like, yeah, he's like all this adulation like, oh, Sherlock Holmes, who you know, and so he he's just there to put the handcuffs on essentially, I guess. But Holmes is thinking we're gonna be three steps behind Stapleton and we're going to make sure that Sir Henry doesn't get attacked by the hound and then Sir Henry gets attacked by them.

Sarah Harrison: 46:21

This fog rolls in there watching the photos. That was really interesting. Like the movement of the fog. You know, we're in Colorado. There's really not a lot of fog here. No, it's not enough moisture. Every time in a good foggy area. I'm like, Alright, the fog is fun moves in. And home just like this is the only thing that can ruin my plan. And it blocks blocks the hound from sight until he bursts out with his fiery mouth and eyes and freaks everyone out. Yeah.

Carolyn Daughters: 46:56

Yeah, I mean, Holmes is like this is foolproof. This. Oh, shoot, it's foggy.

Sarah Harrison: 47:01

He knocked Sir Henry down and he was about to like bite his throat. Yeah.

Carolyn Daughters: 47:07

I really think Sherlock Holmes sort of put his client in danger a couple too many times in this story.

Sarah Harrison: 47:15

On purpose. After the Selden death, I was like, What are you doing? And it was, I mean, his argument made sense. Yeah. It was like, Well, I don't have a case. I couldn't arrest him. On this case. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm thinking reasonably here, but Stapledon died in the swamp anyway.

Carolyn Daughters: 47:36

Did you did you think at any time that there was actually a supernatural hound in the book?

Sarah Harrison: 47:44

I didn't know I have to say at the beginning, like they're kind of disparaging the thought and I thought they probably won't be but maybe they will be. I don't know what happens. I mean, I read it, I couldn't remember.

Carolyn Daughters: 47:56

Yeah. It would be a really very different book. Yes. So from modern horror standards, this book is quite tame. But I would think at the time somebody reading this book might think, Oh, my goodness, this is horrifying the story in it, and it might be exciting from that horror perspective. And I felt that to some degree, you know, but we're used to the Halloween movies and all that we're used to like serious horror and film and in literature but I would think it would it would terrify some some readers who keep turning the page to figure out what's going on with this hound.

Sarah Harrison: 48:38

Yeah, I mean, I don't I probably don't know enough about the literature of that time. The only thing that kind of popped in my mind was most probably because it's getting close to Christmas was Dickens Christmas carol where you have the three ghosts a bit scary but I don't know like what are there are a lot of ghost stories or supernatural stories

Carolyn Daughters: 48:59

There are definitely ghost stories and even The Woman in White has sort of a ghostly element to it where but yeah, I mean, Henry James and others are going to write ghost stories. But that's super now natural like devil Hound is to me seemed like new territory. It might not be I'm not necessarily an expert in this genre. This is where you listener have to help us understand but it felt new. It felt new to me and it felt interesting. And then of course, Arthur Conan Doyle takes it one step back and it's phosphorus Yeah. So it's it's it's a vicious dog, but it's not a supernatural hound.

Sarah Harrison: 49:43

Listeners, if you know of any supernatural Victorian stories, please post them on our social or website.

Carolyn Daughters: 49:53

How would they find that?

Sarah Harrison: 49:54

What is it like? teatonicandtoxin.com

Carolyn Daughters: 50:01

We've been recordiing a long time today, folks, we've really, we've been here a little a little while. It's it's I'm going to help you out Sarah because I know it's very hard. It is teatonicandtoxin.com.

Sarah Harrison: 50:16

Thanks. I need a lot of help, especially with sign offs. Oh, well think of a good sign off listeners

Carolyn Daughters: 50:26

We need a sign off. But let's also just let everybody know quickly before we sign off because the sign off you listeners you're going to want to really stick around is boy, I mean, we knock it out of the park with a sign off. We're reading I think a pretty cool book.

Sarah Harrison: 50:46

I'm excited. I'm excited to see how we feel about it really? Because it's a lady detective

Carolyn Daughters: 50:53

Lady detective. It is Lady Molly of Scotland Yard.

Sarah Harrison: 50:57

I would say don't buy your book from Amazon unless you want to read upside down and backwards.

Carolyn Daughters: 51:03

We have a lot to say about reading upside down and backward when it comes to Lady Molly of Scotland Yard, written by Baroness Orczy who wrote The Scarlet Pimpernel.

Sarah Harrison: 51:12

Oh, yeah, I forgot you said that. Yeah, that's cool. That's movie. Yeah, I do enjoy. Yeah. So yes, I'm excited to see what's in store.

Carolyn Daughters: 51:21

Same author. It's a series of short stories. So read all of them in the slim novel, it's pretty quick read or read just a couple of them. And we will be doing our next podcast. It is our December pick. For 2022. I cannot believe we are getting close to the end of this year. Something else that we'll be doing, I think is maybe an end of year wrap up.

Sarah Harrison: 51:46

I think we should and we've had a lot of cool books. I gotta give kudos to Carolyn for crafting this awesome list of sort of the origins of the detective novel. So I hope you found it as interesting as I have.

Carolyn Daughters: 52:04

And the cool thing is, if you haven't read them yet, or listen to the podcast episodes yet, it's up on our website, and you can just order the books and just, you know, make it part of your holiday break, you know, end of this month, early 2023. And we're going to have a whole bunch of new 2023 books, 12 of them that we're going to share I think the next couple of weeks.

Sarah Harrison: 52:27

Go ahead and just binge them all in order while you're driving to see your family for the holidays.

Carolyn Daughters: 52:32

On on audio. Do not be reading these books while you're driving. Folks, we only have good advice here. The teatonicandtoxin podcast. So, before we get to that sign off, which we have promised, you can find out more about our podcasts AT teatonicandtoxin.com You can leave comments if you do there's a pretty good chance you're gonna get an amazing sticker.

Sarah Harrison: 53:00

Gorgeous sticker.

Carolyn Daughters: 53:01

It's really pretty. And Facebook and Instagram @teatonicandtoxin. Sarah, close us out.

Sarah Harrison: 53:11

All right, listeners. Continue toxin-ing.