The Postman Always Rings Twice - with guest Rebecca Heisler!

THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE (1934) is James M. Cain’s gripping, groundbreaking noir tale of passion and betrayal. In a dusty roadside diner, love and lust ignite a murderous plot and challenge conventional notions of right and wrong. As secrets unravel, two lovers are drawn deeper into a web of crime, leading to a shocking and morally ambiguous climax.

Read: Buy the book on Amazon.

Reflect: Check out the conversation starters below.

Our guest, Rebecca Heisler, lives outside Boston with her two rescue mutts, who are usually by her side while she's reading. Outside of her digital marketing day job, she can usually be found with a book, often recommending the most absurd genres to her book club. She also loves writing, drinking wine, and watching and reviewing every Hallmark Christmas movie each year.
Check her out @bookworminboston

And while you're at it, visit our mutual friend @readfarandwide for bookish travel tips.

One of the things we love about book conversations is how the discussion makes so many connections. For this episode, we made a special idea list, and compiled the links here! Check it out and let us know if we missed any references.

And while you're at it, pick up the next book here!

The Postman Always Rings Twice is on the Modern Library’s list of 100 best novels. Most elements of the hardboiled genre are here. Dark passions. Heroes of dubious morality/amorality in a hardscrabble world. Sudden, squalid violence. Retribution. Albert Camus said the book’s themes and style influenced The Stranger. Dennis Lehane (Mystic River, Gone Baby Gone) has talked about the impact Cain’s dialogue had on him (full of vernacular; true to character). Cain featured the perpetrator of the crime, rather than the detective or law enforcement. Crime novelists owe a lot to Cain.

The book feels like another major departure from the types of books we’ve been reading — the brutality, the psychopathy, the sex. What was the context of this development? What was going on in American fiction? Is Cain the first to do this?

Did you like any of the characters? How did it feel to read the book from inside the killer’s head? For Sarah it was difficult, like having a one way conversation with a crazy person who wants to tell you all about themselves, thinks they have it figured out, but you don’t agree that they do.

In The Postman Always Rings Twice, Nick’s ethnic background is looked down upon, even by his wife. Her distaste for her husband is implied to derive in part from her perception that she is less “white” for being married to him. Mexicans are described as less worthy characters.

Desperation, driven by grinding Depression-era poverty, is key to the psychological landscape of the novel, driving Cora first to marriage and then to murder. She went into the marriage assuming that Nick was unchangeable (and maybe he was), but it was the burden she was willing to bear to get out of the hash house.

Cora also blames her class as to why she couldn’t

Carolyn Daughters
Brand therapy. Persuasive writing courses. Tell the best story possible.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Sarah Harrison: 0:24

Welcome to Tea tonic and toxin, a book club and podcast for anyone who wants to explore the best mysteries and thrillers ever written. I'm your host Sarah Harrison,

Carolyn Daughters: 0:35

and I'm your host Carolyn daughters. Pour yourself a cup of tea, a gin and tonic, but not a toxin. And join us on a journey through 19th and 20th century mysteries and thrillers every one of them a game changer.

Sarah Harrison: 0:54

Carolyn, Sarah, I am really excited about our episode today.

Carolyn Daughters: 0:59

I'm always excited about our episodes.

Sarah Harrison: 1:01

But before we jump in to our exciting episode, we have an even more exciting sponsor. It's Carolyn daughters. Carolyn runs game changing corporate brand therapy workshops, teaches Online Marketing Bootcamp courses and leads persuasive writing workshops. Carolyn empowers startups, small businesses, enterprise organizations and government agencies to win hearts minds, deals and dollars. You can learn more at Carolyn daughters.com.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:37

We're talking about The Postman Always Rings Twice novel. What a crazy book that was. I can't believe I've never read it. I knew very little about it. It's for 1934 by James M. Cain and it feels instrumental to the genre to the crime thriller genre.

Sarah Harrison: 1:53

I thought Dashiell Hammett took us to a

Carolyn Daughters: 1:55

He took Dashiell Hammett's work and went new place but James M. Cain really went took a left turn there. even further out. So kudos, James M. Cain.

Sarah Harrison: 2:10

Yeah, but before we jump into that in our super awesome guest today, we have an excellent listener of the episode.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:19

Our listener of the episode is Rebecca Cahill from Portland, Oregon. Thank you, Rebecca, for being a fan of the Tea Tonic and Toxin book club and podcast.

Sarah Harrison: 2:33

Here's a quick summary of the book. The Postman Always Rings Twice novel is a classic novella, written by James M. Cain, published in 1934. The story is narrated by Frank chambers. A drifter who finds himself at a roadside diner outside la Frank takes a job with Nick Papadakis, the owner of the diner. Frank also begins a passionate and destructive affair with Nick's wife, Cora, which leads them to plot next murder their murder plot, however, it goes terribly wrong setting off a chain of dark, devastating events. From one tension filled page to the next. The book is characterized by a palpable sense of doom. The story explores the consequences of desire, deception and betrayal. In readers are left questioning the character's morality and the choices they make. The book is considered a masterpiece of crime fiction. It's sold millions of copies upon its release, and has been adapted for film seven times. It's on modern Library's List of 100 best novels. Today we're excited to talk about The Postman Always Rings Twice novel, our second book selection of 2024 You can learn more about all our 2024 books selections, along with our 2022 and 2023 book selections at teatonicandtoxin.com and on Facebook and Instagram@teatonicandtoxin. We are very excited today to talk to our guest, Rebecca Heisler. She lives outside Boston with her two rescue moths who are usually by her side while she's reading. Outside of her digital marketing day job, she can usually be found with a book, often recommending the most absurd genres to her book club. She also loves writing drinking wine and watching and reviewing every Hallmark Christmas movie each year. Welcome, Rebecca.

Rebecca Heisler: 4:35

Thanks for having me.

Sarah Harrison: 4:38

Rebecca, that was that was your bio, but I want to hear more about a lot of things we haven't had. Maybe I should back up a second. So I met Rebecca through like an old friend of mine named Mendelian young and I didn't mean The back in sixth grade, like in Indiana together. And she was like, I have this friend this. And she used a word I was unfamiliar with Bookstagram. Tell me what Bookstagram is for you, Rebecca.

Rebecca Heisler: 5:19

So first of all shout out to Mendelian I always say about her. Everyone needs a Mendelian in their life like she is. Everyone's like Sister cousin. She's the greatest. And she brought me to you guys. So Bookstagram is basically where people just like, post talk, ask for recommendations, like talk about what they're reading. It's honestly, where I have crowdsourced a lot of books that I've added to my TBR book club suggestions, which is always the funnest part of our book club, when we try to figure out what we're reading next. I think are my Bookstagram friends, if you will have helped give me a lot of good suggestions. It's just for me, it's like books, or like my side project, or just what I love to do. And whether it's book club or Instagram or anywhere else, like I just want to talk about books with as many people like minded that people like people like you to like, this is a genre that I am not like super familiar with. So and then I read this book, and I was like, what else can I read? So now I've looked at your podcast, and I was like, and I was like, Oh, this era of books, like, outside of like some of the very well known like Agatha Christie novels of the world, like I really haven't dabbled too much. So I love that these novels are like short, but they're very like, impactful that they're not the kind of like, modern day some of the 500 page books that should be 300 pages, I think they do much more concise. So yeah, that's why I kind of got into it and started it, but it's just a fun side project.

Sarah Harrison: 6:57

Yeah. Now, tell me a little bit about your Bookstagram you were saying you read 100 books a year, which is mind blowing, first of all? And how do you use like social media in that interaction?

Rebecca Heisler: 7:11

I try since like, 2018, I've been trying to do 100 books a year, I've, I've made it every year, a couple years, clubs been closer than others. Between my Goodreads and my Bookstagram, like, that's, again, just where I source most of my content from now, like, most of my kind of reading content. There's all these niches within Bookstagram that I think are just fun. It's not all just kind of people talking about book of the month, or Reese's Book club. Not that I don't love those books, too. But it's just kind of a place where I think authors are kind of discovered and found there, too. Like, there's just some authors who I think aren't on these mainstream lists. It's kind of like being discovered through like a Spotify, right? Like you kind of have people who get discovered in these weird, like niche groups, whether it's Bookstagram, or Reddit or whatever. Tick tock, obviously, is now huge. And I think that's really cool. I think it's a good way to kind of discover new things.

Sarah Harrison: 8:06

It's interesting. Are you going to put the Postman Always Rings Twice novel on your Bookstagram? Is that going to be part of it? Because that would be weird to sort of rediscover a classic.

Rebecca Heisler: 8:17

I did post about it last weekend when I was reading it. Because and I think my comments when I posted it in my stories was like, this book is totally wild for being written like, almost 100 years ago, like that, to me is what stood out the most. Because even though there's nothing like explicit or like spicy, it's all the like tension and things that are implied that I think make this like a spicy book, but like a spicy book of that era. You don't need like, explicit romance or sex scenes to make a book like spicy. It's the like, the tension throughout, like every page of this book really jumps off. And I thought for like, almost 100 years, like that's has to be kind of very unique of its time.

Sarah Harrison: 8:58

Yeah, yes.

Carolyn Daughters: 9:02

The Postman Always Rings Twice novel is on the Modern Libraries List of 100 Best Novels, and that surprised me a little. Did that surprise either of you?

Sarah Harrison: 9:13

I don't know, 100 best novels? Maybe I think top one? No, like, how did they define best?

Carolyn Daughters: 9:24

There are a million of those kinds of questions. For example, a lot of these lists don't include people of color. They often don't include a lot of women, they, so a lot of these lists are problematic and a bunch of respect, but to have it included there. So it's not to suggest that it's poorly written, it's actually very well written. It's that it hadn't even been on my radar as a book that I would read, learn from study. As somebody who has read a lot of books and has taught literature before. I was surprised to see that, yes.

Rebecca Heisler: 9:59

It's very subjective question. I was surprised to hear that this was 100 best novel, but I'd never heard of this book. And I was like, What is this is such a subjective what is 100? best novels me? I think it's one of the best novels I've read. I had never heard of this book. No, I had literally never heard this book. Yeah, I think I think it's No, I think it's what like 100 Best is like, obviously, impactful. It was like important at the time, it kind of redefined this genre. And kind of, I think started. I don't know that this ever this genre became mainstream for a while, but I think it was kind of ahead of its time with with some of that, which I think is, but yeah, it's interesting. I had not really made a connection to this book at like, as like, 100 best. But I could see, I certainly respect the opinion of whoever put together the list that this would be an important book. I don't know that I liked anyone in this book I had, I was kind of neutral on Nick, because we don't really know a lot about him. So we don't really know the circumstances. But obviously, like he is, he is the innocent victim on all of this. So I feel badly for him. I don't know that I could say that I liked him. Because the situation of him and Cora, and like how that all happened is like never really explored on the front end of The Postman Always Rings Twice novel. I had questions about all these people's backstories that I just wish I had known a little bit more. But I would say yeah, I mean, Nick is the person that you obviously feel bad for. Because this is just like, like, what a horrible way, like, basically get almost murdered, and then murdered is like terrible.

Sarah Harrison: 11:32

Yeah. I actually liked Nick. I don't know if I'd say a lot, but I liked him quite a bit. I was telling Carolyn earlier, there's this sort of dark comedy movie called very bad things. It's pretty old. But I hated it. Except for one character was Brad Pitt's character, and he got killed. I was like, This feels like that even when Nick, you know, almost got murdered. What he did was take out more insurance on his terrible wife for his terrible wife in case anything would happen to him she'd be fully provided for. Like, that was a super sweet move. And then she just further killed him.

Carolyn Daughters: 12:20

In this book, I feel like Nick is trying to live out the American dream, right? He's building a business. He's trying to grow his business. He wants to have the white picket fence he wants to he wants the whole package deal, the house, the wife, the business, the money. And he's proud of being Greek, but he's also proud of being American. And he's proud of his wife. He calls her his little white bird. So there's a part of me that just really stood behind him is this guy trying to make this completely different life for himself in a in a different way. Cora and Frank are also trying to make better lives for themselves. No matter what we can say definitively their their route to trying to find a better life was a bad one. It was just, they're going to kill somebody to try to make that better life for themselves. In this era, and this Depression era, where I think everything in this world is very hard scrabble. If I detach from the fact that we're about to murder this guy, and actually succeed and murdering him, I was thinking like, the desperation there feeling and that desire to want something more. I could feel those things. I don't see myself ever going to the lengths that they went, but I could, I understood that feeling of like times or bad times are rough. I want something better. Does that make sense?

Sarah Harrison: 14:02

I mean, like Cora, especially for me for Frank, a little less so cuz his whole first goal was to just get Cora to go back out on the road with him. Yeah. And she was like, that's not me. I'll just wind up back in the Hash House. I don't want to do that. So she's like the the only option is to kill Nick. I don't know. What do you think Rebecca?

Rebecca Heisler: 14:30

Yeah, I think the fact that it's a depression era book does kind of signal I think a lot of that wanting something more and everybody kind of, in this book wanting to explore something that they don't have. And by all indications, like Nick is a generous guy again, we don't know the situation of how him and Cory kind of linked up together but you know, he offers Frank a job like Frank is just kind of this like deadbeat who has nothing really to offer other than just kind of work. looking as he needs, and I think they're your, your point Carolyn is right that it's just wanting something. I don't even know if it's something more it's like wanting something different because she seemed to be surviving. Okay with Nick for this time, like, right, there's a lot of people way worse off than the two of them. But it's wanting something different than what she had. And then she gets what she wants out of this. And they seemingly get away with this. And then it's not all it's cracked up to be, which I'm sure we'll get to later. But that it's this kind of false reality that she's like, looking for that. I don't know that she gets anything with friends that she maybe wouldn't have had otherwise.

Carolyn Daughters: 15:39

Interesting. I feel like maybe Frank was sort of the impetus to actually do the thing, like to actually take the steps to murder. So Frank psychologically pushed her to the place where she thought I could actually do this. I can make this change. We can make this happen. But yeah, their relationship gets really complicated after the murder, for sure.

Rebecca Heisler: 16:10

And seemingly very quickly, like it seems like wears off very fast.

Sarah Harrison: 16:17

Yeah, they're like ready to kill each other as soon as they basically get off the hook. But, you know, it seemed like, Well, Frank, Frank wanted Cora. And that's about the extent what he wanted beginning to end. Cora wanted to build something and was weird to me. That was, that was another thing you bring up. Rebecca about. Nick gave Frank a job. And I felt like The Postman Always Rings Twice novel indicated he knew he was a deadbeat. You see the whole dialogue from Nick's perspective where he's kind of thinks he's pulling the wool over, from Frank's perspective, pulling the wool over Nick sighs those two names are really too similar for me. Yeah, pulling the wool over Nick sighs. But Nick sees right through it, and he's offers him a job and then offers him his old job back. Yeah, just see seems very naive, very clueless, and just very ready to give Frank every chance in the world.

Carolyn Daughters: 17:23

All of those things. And yet, at the same time, he's had a revolving door of employees filling this one slot. So he knows that they're all deadbeats, he knows that they're probably only there for a short time. And when they leave, they're going to take some of his cash and some of his stuff. We see that in the movie version that we watched as well, Sarah, and I watch where, Nick is this guy who's expecting these employees to stick around a very short time. And so he's cajoling them into taking the job like, hey, it's gonna be great. What meal can I make you? What can he do to to get them to say "yes"?

Sarah Harrison: 18:04

Did you get to watch any of the movie versions? Rebecca,

Rebecca Heisler: 18:08

I did not get to watch any of the movie versions. But I still plan to I had a hard time finding them. But I still want to watch one because I'm curious how a feature length movie compares to a very like short novel like this, I would assume this is one of the cases where you get a lot more kind of like character development and exposition in a format like that, because this book is just so short. To me, that was like the only thing that was missing was like a little bit of the kind of backstory and where these people came from, and kind of how they all ended up here other than a random set of circumstances, which is kind of where we just jumped right in.

Sarah Harrison: 18:46

well, the movie doesn't give you that. But what it does do is so weird, not to spoil it for you. But we've had a lot of listeners who kind of want the movie take as well, but it it, it changes the characters to try and make them a little more sympathetic. And Nick, a little less sympathetic, which for me was very, very interesting. Right.

Carolyn Daughters: 19:14

Cora in The Postman Always Rings Twice novel is described as somebody who could pass possibly for being Mexican. And so she said at the beginning of the book, so as to Frank, you think I Mex meaning you think I'm Mexican, or of Mexican descent, the character in the movie version that we watched.

Sarah Harrison: 19:36

And I think in all the movie versions, and a lot of the book covers. Lana Turner ...

Carolyn Daughters: 19:40

And then later, in another version, Jack Nicholson and Jessica Lange, Jessica Lange, Lana Turner are both blonde bombshells. So there's a little more of a bombshell element to her in the film versions, which is Hollywood. I guess that makes sense. But also they looked nothing like Cora to me.

Sarah Harrison: 20:00

they look nothing like Cora and Nick wasn't Greek. So they completely removed the racial element from the book, which I thought was like a very prominent element in the book. Like a lot of Yeah, I mean, then, yeah, go ahead.

Rebecca Heisler: 20:14

They don't even call they don't even call him by his name. Most of the time, they literally only call him the Greek it's meant to be like, a derogatory, like, they're better than him or whatever it is, like it's that's such a tension point throughout like the entire first half of the story.

Carolyn Daughters: 20:30

So, Albert Camus supposedly said the themes and style of The Postman Always Rings Twice novel influenced that The Stranger. I don't know that anybody has clarification on this. But readers, if any of you do, please let us know. But from what I read, part of that had to do with Nick being the Greek and just killing this guy. Right. And then the stranger Of course, it's the killing of an Arab.

Sarah Harrison: 20:57

I haven't seen or read The Stranger.

Carolyn Daughters: 20:59

So I think that idea of just 12 murders, yeah, okay. Sure. Why not just almost Cavalier influenced Camus in, I think, an interesting way. Yeah,

Sarah Harrison: 21:16

it was almost treating. And that was, that was part of the tension that really got to me, is the writer who is the killer, is treating Nick as almost non human. But you can't get past his description, when Nick has actually killed, you know, like the entire Greek community came out to mourn him. And he was really something and he was really kind person and everything you read. I just loved Nick, and all the things he was trying to do for his family and his life. But then, from the perspective that were forced to read through, its sub humanizing him, I don't know, tell me more about what you thought about the sort of ethnic aspects in the book, Rebecca? Well,

Rebecca Heisler: 21:58

I think I mean, you just I was about to say what you just said of, they don't even treat him like a human. They don't talk about him like a human. They don't treat him like a human. But in this like callous way of not treating him like a person, they themselves kind of turn into these like, robotic like inhuman, just like savages. Like, the entire thrill of all this for them is whether it's with each other or with Nick is like the violence, the like, danger of it all like that is there. That's what's fueling them not, not like any type of love connection between the two of them. And I just think, Yeah, it's interesting how you talked about this getting because again, I didn't watch the movie. But the early stages of this book, The the Greek and the racial element is like, so huge. And the community part of it is also not really explored until after he dies, where it's like, okay, this guy, he was a part of this, like, larger community, I assume that's like, whenever this is meant to be like taking place and wherever there's obviously some, like Greek influence the earth that it's, it's kind of a bummer that that's never been explored on stage or on screen, because that's kind of like, the foundation of, of their character is just treating him like he's less than, and I don't know if that's some type of like, core of herself feels like she has to prove something because she says In the beginning, like, you know, she thinks she's Mexican, or whatever, like, does she feel like she has to prove something to somebody? Because she again, we don't know her backstory, but that that was kind of came to my mind, too, of like, What is she trying to prove? And why?

Sarah Harrison: 23:35

Her inner racism to me like Frank could read it. And he used it as a lever to manipulate her right from the right from the beginning. And it was, again, her own inner racism, like the stuff she described that she didn't like about Nick was nothing about his character. It was all about like, the ethnic hygiene or what have you, like, little things like that, that she didn't like his cologne. It was very insane.

Rebecca Heisler: 24:08

Yeah. And I kept wondering, like, if she feels this way about this guy, then why don't you just marry him? Because he seemingly has like, this is a tough time in America. And he seemingly has like, a business and some type of steady job and some type of like, steady work where, and again, he's the nice guy who like I'm sure there's tons of unemployed drifters who come across his path. And he's giving people a chance to work like offering help, like is is that her reason for being with him? Because there's some type of stability that she just kind of latches on to in an unsteady time, but she certainly doesn't get anything with Frank that she wants in the end. I mean, it sounds like they have great sex, but besides that, there's really like nothing there.

Sarah Harrison: 24:54

Sounds like you have very rough sex,

Carolyn Daughters: 24:57

which is another aspect that was not in the film. 1946 film version we saw, right so there are scenes early in The Postman Always Rings Twice novel where Frank punches her thigh as hard as he can with the goal of leaving a bruise.

Sarah Harrison: 25:11

Or she'll say rip me. Yes.

Carolyn Daughters: 25:15

Not in the movie. In the movie version, Lana Turner felt to me sort of like a Hollywood starlet dropped into this diner in the middle of north of LA or something like that. Like it just she. It she felt miscast to me.

Sarah Harrison: 25:34

Oh, yeah. Well, and then the, like I said, they removed the ethnic part completely. In the movie. Nick was not Greek. What he was was old. And so they kind of made it seem like Oh, poor Cora. She's in a marriage kind of Oh, and he was really controlling. Yeah, he was old and controlling. And you could feel sorry for Cora. Right. That instance, we're in the book. I honestly didn't feel sorry for her one time.

Rebecca Heisler: 26:01

I think it's like there's nothing to indicate that there's like an abusive situation here between them. Like whether that's physical or emotional. Like there's nothing that indicates which again, gives you no reason to, to root for her and this so I get adjusting it on on screen to a certain extent, but that's also just like, not who she had. She's a status She's literally yes to say this.

Carolyn Daughters: 26:25

I don't root for her at all. Certainly in the film version, not at all. In The Postman Always Rings Twice novel, maybe I can, as I was describing before, take that step back and see the world a little bit from her vision. But in the film version, not at all, like there was nothing connecting me to her.

Sarah Harrison: 26:45

I feel like the film version tried to make you do it, though, by making Nick a worst character. They tried. I didn't root for her in The Postman Always Rings Twice novel at all. I was kind of with Rebecca. She is a sadist. She's a straight psychopath. You know? And same with same with Frank. The best we get out of Frank is like, well, he hasn't done anything to me. Yeah. What if you want me to? I'll go ahead and smash his head.

Carolyn Daughters: 27:12

And I wrote this definition here from Encyclopedia Britannica. So psychopaths, yes, psychopaths are distinguished by a nearly complete inability to form genuine emotional attachments to others, a compensating tendency to form artificial and shallow relationships, which the psychopath cynically exploits or manipulates to benefit himself of corresponding ability to appear glib and even charming to others, and a tendency to carefully plan criminal activities to avoid detection. So just to clarify our do we think that Cora and Frank are textbook psychopaths?

Rebecca Heisler: 27:52

I think they both check all of those boxes. I think Frank like Frank more directly checks all of those boxes with his like explorer, even when he runs off with magic. And he's seemingly like they've gotten away with murder. And then he just runs off with his other woman, like, so weird to a tee. So weird. Definitely checks all the boxes and seemingly like if, if the ending doesn't kind of wrap up the way it does, like he would just continue on with this lifestyle, like there's absolutely no indication that he would ever have actually changed for Cora or anybody else.

Sarah Harrison: 28:23

Yeah, and he's very quick to go from, you know, plotting Frank, or Nick's murder to plotting chorus. Of course, he changes his mind. That was a weird part in The Postman Always Rings Twice novel where Cora gets pregnant. And in her heart, and I would say, Cora checks all these boxes to Yeah, but what they don't seem, the part that's missing maybe is they don't seem to think that about themselves, they both refer to their great love. You know, and she doesn't seem to see the inconsistency and saying that when she married neck, she planned to stick by his side. But she's so far from that she's actually going to play his death. You know, and so when she like, has this, you know, pseudo change of heart like now I'm gonna stick by Frank side, and we're gonna have a baby. Like, what's to keep her there? Nothing. She'll kill him also.

Carolyn Daughters: 29:21

They have this really complicated relationship with this word, or idea of God. And I say word or idea because at no point do I feel either of them is religious in any way. But they bring God into many conversations. God is on their side, God is not on their side. This is evidence that God is angry with them. This is evidence that God is championing them and supporting them and I wanted to get your lady's take on the role God plays for Cora and Frank in this book. Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 30:00

What do you think, Rebecca? Did you notice all the God talk?

Rebecca Heisler: 30:05

I noticed lots of lots of God talk. But it all just felt so arbitrary. Like, are they looking to God as like a way out for their actions? Are they looking for some type of redemption from God for any of this? Like, it's all it all felt. So you can edit this out if you want, but it's kind of like some of these like fake Christians of the day who it's just like, always talking about God. And then it's like your are your actions matching matching that? Or is this just kind of an excuse for behavior that is unjustified? Like that seems to be an again, that's like a, I don't know, it's something I've struggled with, with like, religion and God myself. It's like, there's all these people who I think, claim to be super religious, and do your actions or your words kind of match that. And to me, they're like looking for some type of redemption for things that it's not there. Yeah, this book is about karma more than it is about God.

Sarah Harrison: 31:03

Totally.

Carolyn Daughters: 31:05

Yes, I definitely want to talk about that. What So with regard to God in this book, what's interesting is, so there are people who are hypocritical in the world. And they throw around this word God without necessarily aligning the way that they live with the idea of who God is to them or to a larger populace. In this book, The cast is so small, and Cora and Frank are really each other's everything in this book. And so I got the sense that God had a meaning to them, whether it was some this guy who was in their corner, or their camp, or this guy, who could punish them for doing wrong. But they had an idea of it, and because they only had each other to communicate with, and in some cases, were getting Frank's thoughts, I felt that it was less phony than simply poorly developed as a concept. Like they didn't have any sort of moral grounding religious foundation, like they had been lacking that maybe in their youth in their upbringings. And it made me wonder, as Rebecca mentioned, we don't know what their backstories are in any depth, right? But it's possible, they came from these really tough environments where morality and religion or whatever the foundations are, for any individual we're just lacking. And it was do whatever you can, whenever you can get what you can.

Sarah Harrison: 32:49

Yeah, I like, we're not going to edit it out, Rebecca, about what you're saying about sort of the, you know, for lack of a better term, phony Christians. Yeah. I think back in the day, back in this day, everyone had some level of education, about God, about Christianity. Sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean they formed the kind of deep spiritual relationship relationship if, if I can bring in another book as maybe Father Brown, or, you know, the writings of GK Chesterton that Chesterton kind of put out there, you know, so that it's almost like God is a genie, or something, God's backing up, or his, whatever they're thinking in their mind. And it's not, as you said, like, it's not well developed, spiritual concept. It's just like, almost a common culture, and an abuse of application to say, look what God did when we let us kill Nick, and we had so much love, right?

Carolyn Daughters: 33:58

They seem to equate, like where they are, at this point in time, like, Are the police hot on their trail? Oh, God's mad at us, or everything's coming up roses, everything's delightful. The business is thriving. God really likes us. And so at the end, she is saying, she says something like, we're down here together, but we're not up high anymore. Our beautiful mountain is gone. The word God doesn't appear in there. And yet, to me, that is a statement relating to God or karma or something. It's relating to her, like almost instinctual recognition that something has shifted, and it's possible we shifted it.

Sarah Harrison: 34:48

Yeah, it's, I agree. Like even though they didn't say God, like, beautiful mountain, on top of the beautiful mountain, you mean the rough sex you had next to your husband's dead body that you smashed his head in? Like, I don't know, I that was so discordant to me. How did you deal with the discord? Or did you feel it was discordant, Rebecca?

Rebecca Heisler: 35:11

Tell it tell me more what you mean by discord?

Sarah Harrison: 35:14

Well that she would call this a beautiful mountain and I'm seeing it as kind of the meanest lowest point of The Postman Always Rings Twice novel. You know, the sexy next to the corpse of her husband. That he smashed his head with a bottle. Yeah. And it was just like, it kind of made me nauseous. And she's seeing it as this pinnacle of love.

Carolyn Daughters: 35:37

Yeah, the phrase here profound lovers blessed by God.

Rebecca Heisler: 35:43

Well, I think in that moment, when they finally have like, they've committed the murder. I think there's like two highs for this, right? It's the committing of the murder, which is clearly like getting them turning them both on. And then there's the like, getting away with the murder is like the other peek that they have. But it has nothing to do with like, I don't think either of those things have to do with like their love for each other. I think this is some type of weird satanic Bloodlust that they both have like, and they're using this excuse of love. And they're meant to be together and they're soulmates. And they're all these things as just their excuse for that. But I think like, the fact that they Yeah, there's like they have sex next to his bloody corpse before she and the dismount of this murder, right is horrible. Like, of course, it's like, not well thought out. Like they, they think when they're masterminding all of this that it's going to work. And then they clearly right away. It's like there's red flags all over the place with with this murder with the two of them. But yeah, when the highest of highs are committing a murder, and then seemingly getting away with a murder, like, these people are like satanic. They're not like they're I never I really never at any point in this believed. Even in the very beginning when they're clearly like, it's obviously more or less than blood last, but I never buy that these two are really in love. Like I think she just wanted something different and thought of this in her head as it's something better. But it wasn't something better. It was just something different.

Carolyn Daughters: 37:14

So tell us about a long, fatal long, long fatal love Chase.

Rebecca Heisler: 37:21

Gave you ever have you read A Long Fatal Love Chase? It's Louisa May Alcott. She wrote this book. She wrote it, I think later in life, and it was not published at the time because it was considered like way too scandalous for the time period, which would have been probably the 1860s it wasn't actually published until somebody found the manuscript in it was 1995, when it was finally published. So like, well over 100 years after she had died, the book was finally published. And it is like, I mean, Little Women is like probably the most iconic book I've read as that kind of like got me into reading like that was early book for me. As it is for I think many of us, this book is completely different. But the the, the Jux the thing that kind of reminded me a little bit of this is in long fatal love Chase, the kind of protagonists, the woman ends up with a man and then it ends up not being what she expected it to be, except unlike Cora, she leaves that situation. And then the whole thing is like this, this man is chasing her. And it's this like long fatal love Chase. And there's like, there's there's death and destruction in her path. And yeah, the the love interest is facing her throughout this book, but she comes to the reality of herself that like, Oh, this is not what I thought it would be. But the kind of beginning of falling in lust, if you will, is kind of similar to this where it's like, all consuming and then I can't think of the name but I think Rosalind is the name of the protagonists. Yes. She Yeah, I mean, she ends up with him and then kind of comes to her senses that this is no good for her. And then he keeps following her and tracking her down. And it's a fantastic book. Like, if you haven't read it, it would even be good for for you guys to talk about here because it's very mystery very dark. You'd never think Louisa May Alcott wrote it, except that it's a great storytelling, but it's a complete departure from like anything else. She's done. And okay. It's an interesting backstory for the book, just because it didn't get published till the late 90s.

Sarah Harrison: 39:33

Really?

Rebecca Heisler: 39:38

I think it was like the 1870s. Yeah, it was like, later a little later, but dates

Sarah Harrison: 39:44

this book then. Wow.

Rebecca Heisler: 39:48

At the time, it was just considered way too scandalous and too, especially written by a female author, and I think she she writes it in a way where Rosamond is not the Kind of. She's certainly not like a sadist like Cora. It's kind of written more like the women of the time where, you know, she's she's not necessarily a damsel in distress. She's like a strong woman, but she's not. Yeah, it's like that's one thing I thought about for it was like, this is a very interesting way to write about a woman in the 1930s. Like, there's no Daisy Buchanan, Great Gatsby here, where she's like this helpless victim and everything like she's an active participant, which feels like a kind of departure.

Sarah Harrison: 40:30

Well, and I asked about the time period, because The Postman Always Rings Twice novel did really feel like a departure to me. As Carolyn mentioned, we were reading Dashiell Hammett, who was a departure from kind of the cozy English mysteries. But I know there was there was stuff going on in American fiction at the time. And then this felt like, you know, another light years jump forward. And I'm just like, what was was James in, in cane singular in this or was there a lot of fiction moving in this direction at the time, and I must think there there was, especially if you're bringing up Louisa May Alcott, who vastly predates this book. But

Carolyn Daughters: 41:17

I don't have a lot of information about how this book influenced others, except maybe more modern-day Dennis Lehane, for example, was influenced by James M. Cain. But the movie rights sold for$25,000, which is the equivalent of half a million dollars. Today, I have to think that The Postman Always Rings Twice novel made its mark, and that readers of the book wanted more, he wrote another book, Double Indemnity double. That's a very difficult word to say. indemnity. And the themes in that book, I believe, are similar. I've not read that. The book Double Indemnity. But I think James M. Cain is riding that wave that he himself is helping to create, and probably other authors did as well, I would think.

Sarah Harrison: 42:09

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Rebecca Heisler: 42:12

I think as a as an he's obviously, male author writing story about male and female. Is there anything, I'm just curious if there's anything where like, men of the time could write a woman or a story like this in a way that like, again, long faded, love, Chase would have predated this, but like, she was a woman author, I've always wondered like, do male authors, just as of this era, kind of get more options and get more of a pass to kind of write these types of stories, but you guys have read more in this genre than me? So you might know better than me?

Carolyn Daughters: 42:46

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. I mean, the books that are preceding this include even like Kate Chopin's The Awakening, and other books where female authors are being what would have maybe been called risque in their writing and in the themes and topics that they're exploring and the ways they're developing female characters. This does have a gritty sort of darkness to it, that I couldn't personally picture a female writer in the 30s writing, but maybe I just haven't come across that author yet.

Rebecca Heisler: 43:25

Yeah, I don't know.

Sarah Harrison: 43:28

I think you're right, that this, this sort of things are just developing in these little bubbles coming up from various authors. I liked one thing you said to Rebecca, I think probably because I felt the exact same way. And I was questioning that, which is that you are waiting for an antihero reason to root for these two, but they were completely irredeemable. And I kind of got that since I felt like am I supposed to like these people? Should I like them? Because I don't like them? I don't think so. Well, and it so kind of hearing what your guys saying I feel justified in not liking them. But why did he write these characters?

Carolyn Daughters: 44:16

It's a it's a great question. But I mean, Rebecca, you mentioned earlier like, this is a sort of a book about karma. Right. So on some level, I think the Postman Always Rings Twice novel has a karma element to it. Do we want to talk at all about karma?

Sarah Harrison: 44:37

Yeah, let's do it.

Carolyn Daughters: 44:41

From your perspectives, is there a comeuppance in this book? If so, is it intentional from the author's point of view? Is he making a moral statement?

Rebecca Heisler: 44:51

Good question. I hadn't really thought of it as like, is it? Is it like a firm moral statement about one specific thing or is it just like To me, this was just a greater, I mean, the title, the title obviously says it but the Postman Always Rings Twice is they seemingly for I guess Frank's specifically, I'll talk about like, we don't know his backstory, but he meets Cora he gets away with this affair with her, then he gets away with this murder, then he gets away with this trace that he has with this other woman. And then the whole thing comes crashing down. So it's like you can't outrun the consequences for this, even if it's not. The intended consequence of like, the intended consequence would be they don't get away with a murder, right? The intended consequence would be one of them is held accountable for this and the unintended consequences like yeah, they they do get away with this, but it all comes crashing down on him in the end. And he loses everything, including his own life in the last page of The Postman Always Rings Twice novel, but I don't know that it's a I didn't think like, oh, this is a moral judgment on one specific thing. I thought it was more of just like a oddly satisfying and twisted way that like, they, they unfortunately get what's coming to them. And they do both meet God by the end of this book, and whatever that looks like to them is between them and God.

Carolyn Daughters: 46:19

Sarah, what do you think?

Sarah Harrison: 46:20

This was another instance that I thought was a weird similarity with malice aforethought. So in that book, you know, again, written from the perspective of the killer, whom we do not sympathize with. He gets away with the crime, only to be convicted of a different crime he didn't commit and executed for that one. So I was like, that's a really weird, similar structure there. I'm except we're in malice aforethought is a little bit comedic. There was zero comedy. I felt the postman it was not funny for me. But yeah, I was whether it's karma, or whether it's the, you know, chorus states it is like God, in her crazy way, where she's like, don't you see, Frank, we took a life. So now we have to give one back. Yes. It's like, no, no, no, no, you don't get to kill your husband and be pregnant by another man. And that's like, yeah, or even with God. That's what he's going for.

Carolyn Daughters: 47:25

The title of The Postman Always Rings Twice novel is a common question people have about this book and about the movie is what is going on with this postman? I had mentioned in a previous recording, I had seen the Jack Nicholson Jessica Lange version, when I was a child, way too sweet, too young to be watching this movie. But we had cable and I was home alone, I was probably like, in fifth grade or something. I was like, Oh, let me watch this movie. And I did. And even coming to this book now. So many years later, I still envisioned a postman, even though I have seen the movie as a child. So I think I had like, filled that gap in my head with a postman. In my mind, I remember the doorbell being wrong, and I was in my memory of it. Oh, that must have been the postman. Well, so back in the Victorian era in England, Ireland, the postman would ring the doorbell knock on the door, what have you to say the mail is there and then go away. But if the postman rang twice, knocked twice, that meant something serious was going down, he probably had a telegram or something like that to handover and that telegram is important, in many cases, that telegram because of the cost associated with it would indicate somebody close to you had died. And so it's that idea that he rang TWICE, Like something serious is going down like there is there's going to be a price to pay kind of thing. It is a really strange title for a book, though, because it seems so wholly disconnected from from the actual story. How did you both feel about the title?

Sarah Harrison: 49:11

Now? What did you think Rebecca?

Rebecca Heisler: 49:14

I appreciated you putting the notes in about the postman, the background of the postman because I honestly was like, Okay, this is like a very loose connection. But yeah, it's nothing at all to do with the story. It's a it's a highly symbolic title, which it's a good title, but it's highly symbolic, and it doesn't actually give you any indication really what the book is about kind of at first glance. So I hadn't, you know, when I kind of looked up the broad description of this book, I was like, Okay, I'm kind of putting this together. But I think the background of that is were like really interesting and the, the two rings meeting something urgent, something in escapable almost is really interesting. I don't know that it's the best title for this book. I would have picked something that was a little bit like Rainier to kind of match with the tone. But it is as far as symbolic. It's one of the best, like, kind of symbolic book titles I've heard.

Carolyn Daughters: 50:06

Yeah, for sure. I agree with that. Even at the end, this is a spoiler. So listeners, if you've not read, it hasn't been spoiled enough. Yeah, like we've already told you 10 major things that happened in The Postman Always Rings Twice novel, but this is number 11. Frank is in prison, and he's going to die. He's been charged with chorus death. And it's so important to him. That Cora, if possible in heaven, wherever Korea is that she knows that he did not attempt to kill her. And I thought that was really interesting for a guy who is a psychopath who's completely detached, who doesn't really care about anyone but himself. He really wanted, if possible, some way for Cora to know that he did not attempt to kill her. And I had trouble wrapping my brain around why this was so important to him.

Sarah Harrison: 51:06

Did that strike you, Rebecca?

Rebecca Heisler: 51:09

I think it's like a, I don't want to say a rare moment of like, humanity, but also like, yeah, I don't understand why. Why she would need to know. Like, again, this just goes to his like, his state of mind of kind of always putting himself first in everything. It's like, why would he need to ever tell her something like that? Like, what is the kind of end goal other than it would somehow make himself feel better about something like it's just kind of goes back to like, his needs are priority over everything else, including, including her? Like, there's not there's never a time in this where he's, he's really putting her first in anything. It's always about, like, his needs kind of driving this, like I don't understand other than some sort of sort of weird self-gratification why you would ever want to tell her that.

Carolyn Daughters: 52:00

So you don't see it is like, is it possible that this is some growth on his part spiritual or otherwise? Where he's I'm just asking I questions I rarely know the answers. So you, you didn't sense anything beyond just what?

Sarah Harrison: 52:19

Well, I it to me, it felt like par for the course with these two. And I think I feel like your explanation, Rebecca, that it's really about his needs. And his wants. Makes a lot of sense. Because it's that same dynamic I kept struggling with, which is you read about him and you're like, here's a couple of psychopaths. Yeah. And the only divergent characteristic from being a psychopath seems to be that they don't see themselves in like a completely in that light of just looking out for their good and disregarding the other, they seem to really see themselves in this spiritual light of love, and God and growth. And, and every time they turn over a new leaf, they really believe in their new leaf. They're not seeing that all their new leaves in the same way. And so well, and then the

Rebecca Heisler: 53:19

delusion over like, I didn't kill her. So I am like, such a superior person, because I chose like, it's like, no, that it's just so again, zero redeeming qualities with either of these people. But the Yeah, it's like, you're not a better person, because you're just like, I am just so great. And I'm so so godly and above all of this, because I chose not to do this. It's like, No, you shouldn't just want to like kill this woman like

Carolyn Daughters: 53:42

that chose not to murder.

Sarah Harrison: 53:44

Yeah, that whole scenario, where she's like, I'm gonna let you drown me if you want to. Yeah, because I can't swim that well. And I'm pregnant. Since you didn't then this

Rebecca Heisler: 53:59

type of like, they're looking for this like superiority they both are of they're like chasing this like, and again, going back to the theme of like God and godly like they're just kind of chasing this ideal that they represent something that's completely bogus.

Sarah Harrison: 54:17

They seem to be the only ones that really believe what they're saying.

Carolyn Daughters: 54:23

Yeah, it's so interesting. He wants his story told at the end, he wants his story published at the end. So maybe again, that comes to his self gratification. I want my story to be told. It was the 1934 equivalent of wanting your Facebook post or something like that. Or is there something in there where he wanted people to know Yes, I did do this thing, but I did not do this other thing. I don't know. It's interesting.

Sarah Harrison: 54:55

The Postman Always Rings Twice novel really just stuck with me in an uncomfortable way.

Rebecca Heisler: 55:02

Yeah, I'm glad there's a weird like the notoriety. Sorry, the notoriety element at the end is kind of like the I listened to a lot of true crime and watch a lot of like true crime stuff and this kind of desire for everybody to like, know your name and know your story is like such a weird thing that drives like murderers and serial killers. And I think this was obviously far ahead of like, this idea of true crime being like mainstream like it is today. But that's such a like, driver of people who murder especially like serial killers is this desire that like, they just want people to know their name, they want people to know who they are.

Carolyn Daughters: 55:42

Are there any true crime stories that come to mind is once not related to this book in any way, but that like really resonate from just a storytelling aspect from beginning to end, like, wow, that's an incredible It's incredible how that murder took place or how it evolved. Um,

Rebecca Heisler: 56:03

gosh, I can't even remember the name of, I'm just I listened to this podcast all the time called smalltown murder. It's my favorite podcast. And they did a it's not for everyone. It's very much for me. It's these two guys who are actually comedians who are very empathetic and how they talk about this stuff, obviously, but they cover small town murders. And they did one maybe like six weeks ago that was just this like, serial killer in I think it was like the 60s or 70s in I think it was Wyoming so it was very like middle of nowhere America. And just the the unfolding of murders over the course of like, I think it was 10 or 12 years that this happened. And this was pre DNA pre everybody having green cameras and all of that. But just the kind of drive and then when this guy gets caught, like the most of the time when serial killers or killers who I think have this kind of psychopath, they will tell the story they will tell the story because they know they're caught they know they're dead to rights. And they want everybody to know like they just have this sick desire to tell everybody what they've done. And it's just about that kind of notoriety even for a lot of them like Ted Bundy that comes like in their trials and then after their death but they just they become infamous and that's I don't know I don't I don't think that's how I want to meet my maker but they certainly don't be seem opposed to it.

Carolyn Daughters: 57:36

Yeah, so what's name that podcast again? Small Town?

Rebecca Heisler: 57:41

Small Town murder a small town burner. Okay.

Carolyn Daughters: 57:44

To check that out.

Rebecca Heisler: 57:47

I've listened to a lot I've listened to a lot of true crime stuff and obviously into like, but yeah, there's just the kind of similarity of the kind of self centered psychopath putting yourself and your story above everything is such a wild, wild concept.

Carolyn Daughters: 58:07

Like being unable to see outside of yourself. Your ego is so dominant that it's like everything is about you. If something's going well, God is bestowing his love on you if it's going poorly, oh, I made God angry. Like everything is enclosed around yourself as the beginning and end of every situation and every thought and yeah, it's interesting maybe that's part of that being a psychopath is truly just not being able to see outside of oneself.

Sarah Harrison: 58:36

I love Ben

Rebecca Heisler: 58:39

I mean, do you guys agree obviously we don't know Frank's background but like he certainly had like killed before and had like there's gotta be so much that I would assume this was like not the first time this this all of this feels like it's not the first time this guy has committed a crime of this magnitude.

Carolyn Daughters: 58:58

so you think he might have committed murder in the past?

Rebecca Heisler: 59:02

I just think everything kind of drives to like he's this drifter? We don't know much about him he seemingly jumps from like Woman to woman he has the same with more of it even that's not enough for him like I just said to me when they the first like attempt attempted murder and then the actual murder it's like okay, this guy seems like a little too fluent in this for this to be kind of the first time.

Sarah Harrison: 59:29

I thought it was his first time for a cup of he's he's clearly a drifter and a grifter. But he didn't. He didn't seem to warm up to the idea of murder quite as quickly as Cora and then he seemed a little bit haunted by the image of smashing Nick skull with a bottle. Like that came up for him a few times, in a way he didn't love. But that said, I do feel like it opened a door for him. We're now he's like, Well, I'm not opposed to killing Cora, and I feel like it had he gone on he would have killed people.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:00:11

He seems like a guy who from the start had very few boundaries, maybe initially, he wasn't looking to commit murder, but he was the sort of guy who would do most anything he needed to do to get. A one day at a time sort of thing. He was never looking out into the distance. Whereas Cora wanted to build this business. She was entrepreneurial. He was like, Well, what am I, what do I want to do tomorrow? Where do I want to go tomorrow? And he would jump on someone's truck and hitch a ride unknowingly to the to the driver, he would steal, he would cheat, he would all the stuff. But he ultimately commits murder. And at that point, I think the sky's the limit. Like I don't think there's anything stopping him at that point. If he hadn't been caught. I would see. The next opportunity. Well, why not kill I've already killed?

Sarah Harrison: 1:01:06

I think he just kind of opened him up to it. It was a fascinating book. I, I have a couple of questions for you. Personally, Rebecca. before we, before we wrap up our episode I, I want to hear because so we're a book club or book club and podcast. And I know you're super involved in your book club back in Boston. But it sounds like a really different structure. So tell me about your book club in Boston. Yeah, so

Rebecca Heisler: 1:01:35

our book club we're going on? I think this is eight years in? Yeah, it'll be 2020 24 will be eight years. Our book club is I think total we have like 12 people. And as things go, when we meet every month, we usually have like, seven to 10 people. Our only general rule is that we only read female authors. So we alternate a lot between fiction and nonfiction. We every summer do kind of like a childhood reading month where we've read Nancy Drew, we've read baby sitters club, Sweet Valley High, all of those types of kind of series that I think have defined most of us. Early on as readers. We've read classics. Yeah, it's, we're kind of all over the map. But that's what makes it fun.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:02:23

That's really cool.

Sarah Harrison: 1:02:24

You mentioned that it kind of ties into what we're doing in that we're a little bit at the point in this genre, where sub genres are starting to develop, this is considered a noir. And different things like cozies are developing, you mentioned, introducing your club to kind of unusual genres. Tell us about some of those.

Rebecca Heisler: 1:02:53

We never like to take ourselves too seriously. That's kind of like our number one rule of book club. The most absurd book I have ever suggested I was in a Barnes and Noble at is a ground, I don't know, December maybe. And I walked by this book that was titled The Amish Hawaiian adventures and it is an Amish romance book. I had book club a couple days after I had seen this book, I literally just like saw it on a shelf, and took a picture of an eye during our December Book Club, which is usually like an end of year fun, like Christmas celebration type thing. And I was like, What do you think about reading this Amish romance book? And everyone was like, let's do it. Everyone was like, let's talk about it. And it is probably the worst book we've ever read in Book Club. But it is the it is the most fun I have probably ever had at a book club. Like we always say the books we've like, enjoyed the least are always the book clubs we love the most because it just it's like it's like trauma bonding, right? It's like you're just kind of like dumping on. And this is to say nothing of like, I know lots of people. It's weirdly like the woman who wrote the book we read has written like 65 books, she's obviously very successful. There's obviously a market for these books. It's just not us. But it was still fun and very wholesome. And just like, objectively not a great book, but very fun to read with a big group of women.

Sarah Harrison: 1:04:19

What do you mean that you don't take yourself too seriously? Is that just in book selection? Or how do you not take yourselves too seriously? What does that look like?

Rebecca Heisler: 1:04:28

Yeah, I definitely like our book selections. We don't try to be like to, I guess, highbrow and what we're reading. It's really just meant to be kind of a fun escape for everybody. But also just in how we structure book club and what we eat. And we're, for example, we're meeting the week of Pi Day for March and we're doing we're doing pi theme for our book club. So it's like just we're just trying to have fun and I think in today's world Hold where we're all working too much and have way too much on our brains every single day. It's like everybody's few moments of escape, whether it's reading the book or going to book club.

Sarah Harrison: 1:05:09

That's cool. It sounds like you're an in person book club, are you open to the public?

Rebecca Heisler: 1:05:16

We are in person, we kept going during COVID. We did zoom bookclubs for about a year during kind of like peak pandemic time. For a while, we were actually meeting weekly because we were literally all just locked in our houses all the time. So we kind of just met every week and talked about what we were reading. We're not really open to the public, but we've always considered kind of starting some type of like, blog or something where we can kind of like talk about what we're reading, I think like me, and Mendel and Bill talk a lot about about it on our Instagrams, but that's kind of the extent, but we've always been in person with the exception of COVID. Zoom.

Sarah Harrison: 1:05:54

Folks that want to find your Bookstagram or anything about you on social, where can they go?

Rebecca Heisler: 1:06:00

I am@bookworminboston on Instagram, and I have a Facebook page as well. That's generally updated with the same stuff. And Mindelynn who connected us I will plug her account as well. She has @readfarandwide on Instagram. She posts lots about reading and travel and kind of the connection of those two things.

Sarah Harrison: 1:06:26

I told her she was I think thinking about a Southern California trip. And I was like, hey, The Postman Always Rings Twice novel. That's in Southern California.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:06:35

The first Postman Always Rings Twice tour.

Sarah Harrison: 1:06:40

It sure would be I think. Well, Rebecca, it's been wonderful having you on the show. Thank you so much.

Rebecca Heisler: 1:06:50

This was so fun.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:06:51

We very much appreciate having you as a guest.

Sarah Harrison: 1:06:54

Definitely not a light hearted genre, though.

Rebecca Heisler: 1:06:58

I know. I need to dive more into this though. Because I did find this book to be fascinating, despite it being I think 110 pages or something.

Sarah Harrison: 1:07:05

Yeah, there's a lot packed in there. Yeah, yes. Quality over quantity.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:07:11

Absolutely. Next month is another short book. Another good one. I finished it recently. And I enjoyed it. It's a locked room mystery. It's called The Three Coffins in the United States. The British name of the book is The Hollow Man.

Sarah Harrison: 1:07:28

It felt like whiplash after reading The Postman Always Rings Twice novel. And then it's kind of takes us back to the British cozy mystery with the amateur detective genius-type person.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:07:41

So yeah, it's written by John Dickson Carr who was a prolific writer. And it's it's an entertaining locked room mystery with a locked room mystery lecture. Right?

Sarah Harrison: 1:07:54

I just read that part. It was hilarious.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:08:00

You're gonna have to work a little bit to get this book. It's a little bit more difficult to find. It is on all of the mystery lists for the top 100 Mystery Crime Thriller, et cetera. So if you love mystery, it's one you should get. Get it on Kindle. Get it used. Get it however you can get it. It's The Three Coffins by John Dickson Carr.

Sarah Harrison: 1:08:24

Thank you both. Listeners, until our next episode, please stay mysterious.